How to totally screw up a game night...or: Welcome NEW Characters!
Well...So the beginning of the module starts off "So the Party Arrives in Overlook". Except that we, the party didn't. We did however, met a creepy guy on the road, got him drunk, listened to him blather on in an obtuse manner and then our teen-aged wizard reacted, poorly is an understatement to his rantings. One thing led to another and here we are rolling initiative for intraparty combat. Interesting... Syed attempting to belay violence intercedes but to little effect. In a blur the Hurricane and Loki were at it. Syed glanced around the group and everyone's facial expression pretty much told the story "Let them fight it out and if murder occurs, present the murderer for justice". And so on and so on...
Insert best line of the night: "Ok, I drink it!"
End combat here with the Kalashtar laid out and the craven testosterone crazed wizard running off into the woods with the ranger and wolf in hot pursuit.
With Loki in shackles and unwilling to either explain himself nor offer assistance to the party we headed back to Overlook. Still a ways out, the party found a spot to camp and almost made it through the night, when a trio of Night Creepers stumbled onto the party. With some blindness, the group was able to dispatch the brigands and Lady Vala spectacularly decimated one with her thorn whip.
The Duamathrax and Diefenbacher ran down Hurricane and headed back to Overlook to check in on Rufus and then try o reunite with the party. While at Rufus' Tower, the two were mortified by the rebirth styled resurrection of Samantha. As it turns out, Samantha may have returned in body, but did she return in mind?
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Ok, let me respond to a few
Ok, let me respond to a few things.
First, lets all try to remember that we are all friends here. We all mess up, and at this point I think that we need to step back and look at what is really important here. It's obvious that nobody had a lot of fun with that situation, and in hindsight we should have all stepped out of character at some point and discussed how we wanted to resolve the issue. "What my character would do" is far less important than "will my friend be upset" in my mind.
The introduction went awry quickly because my character is, quite blankly, an ass. He was sort of designed to be that way, and I was having a lot of fun with his slow evolution from arrogant and naive to a part of the team. Niles was a big part of that. Ever since the clothes shopping trip, Qevvyn has been quite conflicted by the fact that things are not as black and white as he always believed. He has discovered that he likes Niles in spite of himself. I think that the difference in my own introduction was due in no small part to the fact that I was largely ignorant of the party, and did not claim leadership. I don't mean to say that what you chose to do was wrong, just that it may help to explain the differences in people's reactions.
The reason I stressed the manacles is that not only does it make it "bad form" for a PC to attack you at that point (allowing the more honorable people to defend you reasonably), but we were on the way to town already, and it should not have been an issue for long. Also, I admit to having considered that a psion probably wouldn't be all that inconvenienced by manacles in any event. With that said, I feel horrible for not noticing that you were so upset out of character.
To retort about Sam for a moment, she was viewed as a young boy for a long time and still allowed to tag along. As to "some sam in there somewhere".. I had thought to do something like that with roleplay rather than rollplay. Sam was always stubborn and secretive, but I tried to play up her innate distrust of charity enough I thought. I even asked if people saw the point of what I was trying to do. I have no "rebuild" of Sam, on paper she is as she was (with the exception of level). The amnesia was a method Rob and I came up with to get past Sam leaving the party (no crisis, and Almirith being gone leaves her little reason to "adventure"). I had also intended it to be a good opportunity to roleplay the growth of some bonds with other (non-Almirith) characters, especially Hurricane and Niles since there was the beginning of something there anyhow.
On that note, I would be perfectly willing to work Loki back in with Sam, whether it be that he is the only one who could reasonably bring back her memories, or even that they knew each other previously. Honestly, I had some thoughts that we might adopt the old d6 starwars method of "everyone knows at least two other characters somehow" for new DND characters. I suppose another alternative could come from when Qevvyn seeks to confirm the claim that Almirith desires his return. No reason why that couldn't confirm the rest of his story at the same time.. possibly even direct communication from Almirith if need be.
So, to sum up, lets all try to talk things through out of character, Ok?
~ Todd
Note To The DM
Since my character's are open season for attacks by all members of the party, I need my next character to be equal to the THREAT level posed by said party. This way regardless of what excuse is used, my character might actually have a chance to defend himself in an even fight.
Since I laid out the Wizard in an even battle and my victory was denied me from a gang bang, I think that's only fare.
Thoughts?
Seriously?
Brian,
Come on now. You know full well that for any DM to approve that, then your next character would have to come in at 14th level.
Did your character ask for single combat? Did Hurricane? No. And 3 points of order:
Syed moved to block both of your actions.
Duamathrax SUBDUED not KILLED Loki.
And Arbath pinned Hurricane on the ground.
So the party acted to preserve life, while Hurricane on his own, moved with deadly intentions. So as I said earlier, "Hurricane went insane."
Now, if you want to get all "insulted in character" then figure out a way to work through it "in character". I challenge you as a player to find a way to turn this friction or obstacle into an opportunity to have a lingering grudge against Hurricane. But to shut down completely as a player and character, then you might as well go play WoW and turn off the computer when your character gets beat up a little bit.
Now I haven't heard from Tony yet about Hurricane's psychic break...but want to.
Thanks all...
rook103
rook103
In omnia paratus
Wrong Answer
Mike
Its as simple as this...
From Loki's perspective. He was given the 3rd degree, threatened by mutliple individuals in the party, then was going to be subject to arrest, and when he refused was summarily attacked. When he defended himself (after being nearly bloodied) he was then attacked by another member of the party, and when he awoke, the wizard was gone and he was in shackles.
All because? He didn't give the right answer about the dreams? The dwarf knew about his race and what they could do and stated as much. He was totally honest about what he knew and where it came from. Give me a break!
You act as though you have ANY right at all to decide if my character is appropriate for the group when in fact you don't. I had one simple rule for our gaming group when I started it, Simple Respect. I ask nothing more and will tolerate nothing less. Respect in this case means, once the DM has decided a character is okay to introduce, the players should suck it up and deal with it whatever their misgivings. Roleplaying discontent isn't an issue and is in fact almost a requirement. Outright attacking is entirely different as it makes it an impossibilty to introduce a character. Give me one good reason why Loki (Assuming he's not totally insane) would ever want to be part of a group who by all accounts are completely unpredictable and boarderline evil?
I've had a character in a previous game who was put down upon his introduction due to a mishap of timing. I was a little dissapointed, but took it in stride. Ask anyone about Marius and they'll tell you that I can role play through that kind of thing even if it means I sit the entire 4 to 6 hour session out doing nothing.
I don't need to hear about Tony's break as this happens with all of his characters. Perhaps what you should do is ask about Tony's past characters and how they always ended up attacking a member of the party, causing havoc or the death of another character. There's always some excuse and I'm tired of it.
Simple respect. This is the first time EVER in my gaming history that I've been attacked by the party upon my introduction intentionally. I've been gaming for 30 years!
As to me Shutting down, I was playing it up and you guys were less than supportive!
Unbelievable
the opinions of a now surly Dawrf
All right, some time was had to mull over events, & think about things, & here's my perspective on all of this. (consider a good majority of this as personal opinion, & please, let's keep it calm)
intro-ing a new guy to the group... always a fine option, & generally a point of minor friction to begin with. These things can eventually lead to intraparty issues, but I'm pretty sure this is the quickest it's happened. (we all remember the fun of Zathrass, Kobold Sorcerer Extrordinaire & his conflicts with Xander, the reality breaking nutbar). The biggest problem is, the timing might have been handled a little better. If this had happened back in town, at the bar, I think we could have all laughed this off & had good time with it, but the lone figure boldly challenging the party on the road back to town, got a lot of hackles up. This left us in a none to responsive mood to prophetic dreams with a little too much information to them. Brian, if you recall, NONE of us were quite so well inclined to Qwevin(or however you spelled it) to begin with, but as he finally explained, he was sent by Almirith to join us, he was just letting his own egotism think he was going to be in charge. Did it turn out he was in charge? no, because we didn't let it happen, & soon enough he backed down from that stance.
now, did we all mess up for the intro? yes, we all could have handled it better. The Vincinni cover was fun, you were pretty good at it, but IMHO, it sapped from the ability to really try & find a point to bond on, especially since you still had Niles with the party. Granted, you weren't doing anything with Niles, but it might have gone a little better if you had smoothed him out of the way before introducing your psion. & we could have done more to prevent the ensuing blowup, but the fact that you could have been gutted & just woke up with a bruised gut instead, should speak volumes about how the encounter needed to be defused right there.
Now on to Hurricane..... with ALL the things you could have done, going straight for the dice was the wrong way to handle it. you could have used mage hand to begin swirling the foliage around to portray your growing frustration at the psion, you could have magic missiled a tree next to him to keep it from going that far, you could have done a great number of things to keep it from escalating, but had to go for the throat. When you were revived, you could have taken one second to see the downed psion & talked with the party to explain yourself, but you instead decided to go off the reservation, forcing me to chase you down. then, with a perfect chance to roleplay our encounter out, you just shut down & went looking for another opportunity to have your character jump ship as it were. I hope you calm it down, & not go swimming thru the muck to get your character out, but them's the breaks.
Finally, Samantha.... Todd, I understand if you've decided to rebuild Sam in a completely different way (with rob's permission, using the crazy rebirthing to explain it) but you didn't give a lick of potential that you actually are what you say & we hope you are. All I was asking for was a little sliver of hope that your old character might be in there, & you could have done that with a simple little d20 roll. that's right, a freakin thrown dagger was all I was asking for. I wasn't asking for a knockdown, drag out fight to the finish, I was asking for some little muscle memory test, just to see if the old sam might be coming back, which you could have done with a RANGED BASIC ATTACK. Now I'm left with 2 options.
1) Sam is back, but with all the combat potential of an overripe banana. In which case, you're not coming with the party, because that would be irresponsible in the extreme, because it'd likely lead to your death (again).
2) This is not the Sam we're looking for, & is instead some type of golem/doppleganger ploy that will get the party killed, in which case it would be irresponsible to bring you back into the party, because that'd get the rest of us killed.
either way, Sam as a character is currently benched, & not likely to get back on the horse anytime soon, which makes the revival a moot point.
I know this is very rantish, & for that I apologize, but it seems like I'm the Grumbling Dissapproving Dwarfy Father Figure of the group, so I have to put my foot down & send some kids to their rooms so to speak. If I'm going to stick true to my point of view, what is likely going to happen is that I'll send the party on ahead to the rest of the adventure, while staying in town with Sam at the bar til she recovers while sitting on Hurricane til he starts acting like a responsible near adult & owns up to his fault in the situation, taking the three of us out of game for a bit. I don't want to do that, as I feel it'd be a bit over the top, & we'd end up with only two original Stormlords left in the group, Vala & Wardren(Syed & Nebin, as much as you've become Stormlords are not part of the original pack so to speak), & I'd hate to gut the group that way, for little more than people playing the equivalent of roleplaying Chicken & not budging, then wondering why there was a wreck.
Something Else To Consider
If you'll recall, Niles has never been fully accepted by the group being a Drow. The party at best tolerates him because he's useful and the Wizard never misses a chance to insult him, which no one takes issue with. So using him as a character reference would probably not be the best way to go.
Qwevin's (again, don't know the spelling) came with only the name Almrith and no more proof of his identity than Loki did. Not to mention his openly condescending attitude towards Niles who was already part of the group. His introduction was inside an adventure making his arrival even more suspicious, but no one threatened him, or attempted to shackle him, or for that matter attacked him.
Beyond this, when the Wizard finally went berzerk, he clearly meant to do harm to Loki (17 points on his FIRST attack) who only defended himself. Once that was done we could have been out of round to round as Loki still had no misgivings about the rest of the party regardless of the multiple threats made (a Win is a Win). But the dwarf decided to step into what was an even dual between two combatants to beat own the Psion who clearly wasn't given a choice either way by the Wizard. Then to show how forgiving you all were, you put the Pison in shackles (which he had refused to put on before the attack) just to add insult to injury. Given the situation do you really think a relationship could ever be salvaged from this?
I kept Niles out of it because someone having two characters can always beat down a person with only one and I refuse to play that way. Win or loose I want it to be a straight forward fight.
The worst anyone can say about my character is the fact that I didn't have good timing for his introduction, or the wrong location, or no back story. Interestingly enough, the DM ultimately chose when and where it would be, but yes my backstory just wasn't there. Funny how things work really, I've never seen anyone else's character treated this way regardless of timing, backstory or any other damn thing. And like I've stated before, we've had evil NPC characters who have been treated with more hospitality than my character was.
If Loki's biggest crime was being a self centered egotist with delusions of grandure then WOW, guilty as charged! I thought it would be amusing, seeing as how its been done before without ill effect. I suppose, any excuse will do for poor behaviour.
Okay...
RT::If you'll recall, Niles has never been fully accepted by the group being a Drow.
Niles is a full member of the party so this argument doesn't hold water. As an aside, Drow are naturally a distrusted race within the game setting, so it stands to reason that the group will have negative interactions because we keep company with a Drow.
RT::The party at best tolerates him because he's useful and the Wizard never misses a chance to insult him, which no one takes issue with.
We do better then tolerate him, we rely on him because he's useful. And I don't see you taking up for the Wizard when I call him craven, cowardly, or a useless human.
RT::So using him as a character reference would probably not be the best way to go.
What referece would you give? "Hey, we share a player, will you be my friend?" I understand that you didn't think Loki through and tossed him into the game, but not having a fleshed out background forces you to "wing it" which you didn't do very well at the game.
RT::Qwevin's (again, don't know the spelling) came with only the name Almrith and no more proof of his identity than Loki did.
Again, with a super weak backstory, but one that immediately ties him to a trusted member of the party. What proofs did Loki supply? I think Syed was more then fair in giving Loki opportunities to bond.
RT::Not to mention his openly condescending attitude towards Niles who was already part of the group.
This is a roleplaying game. Kevin was playing up the natural racialism he would feel at seeing a Drow. Niles SHOULD have reciprocated.
RT::Then to show how forgiving you all were, you put the Pison in shackles (which he had refused to put on before the attack) just to add insult to injury. Given the situation do you really think a relationship could ever be salvaged from this?
Of course the party put him in shackles and we would have put Hurricane in them as well, but he decided to pull a jackrabbit move and the woodsy ranger went after him. If Duamathrax had had extra manacles then Hurricane would be in them. And yes as I stated in my earlier post, this can be salvaged via roleplaying. Think it through, we are a company for hire and we take on people whom can be useful to our work. How can Loki be useful to the party and figure out a way to communitcate that. If it is a prophecy or destiny that he meet and join the party then do it! This uneven roleplaying is part of the reason that the game night went off the rails. "I'm so insulted and have been attacked!" But no "Please don't attack me, I have important information for you!"
RT::I kept Niles out of it because someone having two characters can always beat down a person with only one and I refuse to play that way.
I think I have already addressed this point, but WHAT motivation would Niles have had to attack/defend Loki? Why didn't Niles suggest a peaceful negotiation? The answer is the you as a player has already stopped playing Niles and could not see him as a viable voice in our meeting with Loki. Would we have listened to Niles? Sure. Would it have helped? It might have. Would it have stopped Hurricane from going insane? I don't think so. But as a player, you did not even try. So you invested all of your efforts in playing Loki into the group, ignored Niles and it blew up inyour face and you took it personally. To go all Dr. Phil...."How's that working out for you?"
RT::Funny how things work really, I've never seen anyone else's character treated this way regardless of timing, backstory or any other damn thing. And like I've stated before, we've had evil NPC characters who have been treated with more hospitality than my character was.
RT::If Loki's biggest crime was being a self centered egotist with delusions of grandure then WOW, guilty as charged! I thought it would be amusing, seeing as how its been done before without ill effect. I suppose, any excuse will do for poor behaviour.
Well I can't go deep on this, but Kevin's intro was a bit rocky as previously stated. And point of fact my first LoT character in H1, the shifty Cleric (Rogue) almost came to blows on his introduction. So in fact is does happen.
To the point of Evil NPCs...of course we treat them fairly well, we want information out of them. So long as they have something useful we don't kill them outright. What use is Loki to our group? We don't know because he hasn't demonstrated it. If he was well armed and met us we might have taken him in as a fighter or sell sword, but he wasn't. And you presented him as valueless. A harmless parlor trick. We, as a group, may reevaluate that now that he did lay out the Wizard in combat. But the "snatching thoughts, and weird dreams" needs to be portayed in a different light and in a much more constructive manner.
And just going back to a previous point...how doed Loki know that the party isn't all Chaotic Evil...we do have Drow working for us?
Thanks
rook103
In omnia paratus
WAY OFF
Mike
Wow, you're way off!!!
1) Niles has always been an uncomfortable outsider type character in the group being a drow which I accept and have role played to successfully. To say that he's fully accepted is questionable at best. He's tolerated, but not much beyond that. Works for me, I can deal with that.
The point I was trying to make about the name calling and irritating presentation of the character is the fact that you stated that one of the reasons why Loki was attacked was because he didn't exactly make friends at his intro (partially due to timing). My point is that its done all the time to my character and others and no one is attacked for it. Tony's character's do it all the time and specifically he goes out of his way to interject these insults at my characters as much as possible, or so it would seem. I blow it off and move on, until someone say's I'm not allowed to get away with it. No double standards.
2) Why does my character need any reference at all? Never in our time playing this game have I ever seen any character asked for a pedegree to the extent Loki was grilled for, EVER. Most cases the group simply accepts the character and moves on. In many cases you'll hear a rumble about "Keep an eye on him/her", even coming close to blows, but they're accepted. Weak game play or not I never expected to be put through the ringer on something so flipping simple, and I just wanted to move on so everyone would get a chance to play and have fun. Which is the point of the thing yes?
3) As to backstory, it was revealed in game play that I was of a race that had these dreams. The dwarf shared this with everyone, and Loki repeatedly stated that's where he gets his info from.. Over and over and over again. Does this mean the party should jump up and say, "Oh thank the gods he has come to save us!". No, what I expected was a couple minutes of, "Who the hell is this guy?" and "does he really have all of his marbles?" That I could have dealt with, no problem. I used the Goliath picking Loki up as a way to make him a podium from which to speak. I didn't have anything prepared, but I wasn't expecting the level of hostility I encountered since Loki was so harmless, useless and non-threatening.
4) Niles has reciprocated the insults with the "Mounted Knight", I've been using that in game play as you'll recall.
5) As to the situation with ending up in shackles, he never should have been attacked by the dwarf at all. Loki wasn't given any opportunity to speak for himself before he was clobbered by the dwarf's attack making role play impossible. We were still in round to round and I took all my actions. After downing the Wizard, Loki was going to tell the party that he only did what he did in self defense and did not wish any more bloodshed. He NEVER got the frigging chance! ROLE PLAY??? If it was really necessary to take him down he was still HUGELY outnumbered!
Of course you put him in shackles? Self defense against the wizard who clearly was beyond having words and gave Loki no alternative to deadly combat "HAD NO CHOICE". If you recall I thought one of my powers, "Memory Hole" was supposed to make the target ignore me. I figured that would be my opportunity to cause no harm and get beyond round to round nastiness so the party could subdue Hurricane or at least bring him back to reality. This failed because the power changed, or I somehow got the wording confused with another power, it happens. Loki never once threatened anyone and only took the wizard down as a last resort, so why the shackles? Pretty much makes playing the character a non-issue. I didn't want to be a prisoner, can you understand that? I was hoping for a real battle to insue with an external foe to show that Loki was more than a blowhard and useful to the group. Never got the chance...
6) Because we've had people with the leadership feat before, the reccomendation that has generally been accepted by the group is that the DM plays the extra character if there is one. Loki was my main character (new) and Niles was the old extra character. I was adhering to that to keep the two character on one beat down that would have made things worse and ultimately would have been unfair. You haven't been with the group long enough to know about that. Another reason why Niles didn't jump in is because the simple fact that Tony wasn't listening to anyone, in or out of game play, making the matter moot. Rob was really wasn't expecting that to happen given what was transpiring, it was going to be a simple character background reveal, that's all. Again, you haven't been around to see how Tony's characters will suddenly just flip out, you never quite know when it will happen or for what reason.
7) You're point of fact about the Cleric, it didn't come to blows proves my point, it didn't happen. You were allowed to work through it, I wasn't given that chance as Tony had already set the collision course becuase of the background reveal (I think). It's like a hidden trap switch one filps, once done, there is no turning back. If Tony took issue with the reveal, he should have had words with the DM out of character. And once the wizard was down, and not dead, why didn't anyone give Loki the chance to talk? Why wasn't he allowed to speak his peace or say anything in his defense? UFB! Damned if you defend yourself, damned if you don't.
8) Your last set of statements even makes my point more clear. If I was clearly worthless, or harmless, then why the hostility? Why the talk of killing him when clearly you guys thought of him as a joke, which is somewhat of what I was looking for in the introduction. Is it such a crime to be harmless. I half expected everyone to tell Loki to shove off, and in fact several people more or less did. I can accept that. When the parlor trick revealed more information, again I was still harmless so why the talk of shackles when clearly Loki was totally outclassed and outnumbered?
So you don't think I did a good job role playing, this is material to the issue how? You play a Pirate that doesn't do anything that I would consider really pirate like, but I don't critique your game play. You do what you want with your character and have fun with him, whatever makes you happy short of spitting in someone elses cheereos. Again, you haven't been around long enough to enjoy some of my better characters, this is a new one I put together quickly before the game. I was just looking to have a little fun and it just wasn't going to happen. This is a role-playing game as you stated and I wasn't allowed to do much of that.
Can't have it both ways, I'm harmless or I'm a threat? Since you were all talking about killing Loki or putting him in shackles when he clearly was just a snake oil salesment with parlor tricks, it just doesn't add up.
You want role play, or roll play? I did a background reveal given me by the DM and was attacked for my trouble. There was no other recourse for reasons already stated...
You want to have fun, or you want endless strife and interal conflict? I role play when people are open to it, but they have to be open to it.
I don't tell you how to play your character nor do I voice my opinion on how to improve it. Its your character, play him how you want to, and let me do the same.
Finally and the thing I've been trying to say over and over and over again.. Simple respect. There are more people at the table (virtual or otherwise) and everyone would like to participate. This becomes impossible in situations like the one that night and it irritates me to no end when it happens. I did everything I could to stop the fiasco before it started and did nothing to provoke the situation. Give me the BS about the character being annoying or not playing him well enough just doesn't jive. He could just as easily been ignored as I somewhat expected given the amount of prep time I had for him and the way I presented, I was going to use that. I was just trying to have a little fun in my few hours of dwindling free time, while enjoying others doing the same. This is becoming more like work all the time.
sorry this took so long
Ok, so I didn't get to post yesterday due to server going off it's rocker.. hope I can reconstruct my post.
1) Niles
in interacting with Niles, Duamerthrax has occasionally thrown barbs his way, & I admit, in the beginning, it was because he was a Drow. but if you may have noticed, after a few sessions it became less about Niles being a Drow & more about him being a fop. in fazct, the last time Duamerthrax bagged on him at all was when the orc shamaness had her Rain of Filth attack nail you. That was it. Niles has grown into the group & had Tony brought in a new character that sent Niles off the deep end, & Tony dropped Niles, I would have done the same thing, which was end the combat.
2) the intro
while we've never been very forgiving of new intros (if you recall, we grilled Qwevvin for a good few hours before we got the game back on track), the directness of anwsers provided tended to speed things along. Yes, he was annoying & egotistical enough to think he'd be stepping in & taking leadership right away, but at least Qwevvin answered the questions directly that were posed to him. I had to ask you three, THREE times if you were a Kalashtar, just looking for a way to calm things down & explain away the prophetic dreaming. had you simply said "yes" to begin with, I could have had a bit more to work with, but the sheer evasiveness of your answers made dealing with you difficult.
3) the combat
as it breaks down, the combat was beyond the point of no return already, but since it's a sticking point, I'll go over it. Tony got his surprise action, which he used to step into an offensive position. Then, you (yes you) made the first attack roll, & got a DM Fiat (with thanks to the GM for wanting to try & keep this bloodless) to not do damage. Then the Wizard responded with the damaging attack, to which you responded with a Daily power, & an action point to capitalize on the setup to put him down, & you had an opportunity to to keep this from escalating again when you were told, on the tail of your attack, that you could make the damage subdual, but you didn't. & you had a good minute of dead air to make that decision. That would have altered my action significantly, as I would have walked up & used the manacles that the wizard so graciously arcane locked on his unconscious form, & tried to put this fire out right there. Or you could have used that break to take a FREE ACTION TO SPEAK & say something like "please, let's just try to stay calm here...". Instead you stayed in a combat ready stance, looking for the next assault. You wouldn't have been able to quote the Gettysburg Address, but you could have made some type of defense for yourself that didn't require force.
So the DM calls me in the initiative. I have to weigh what will happen if I let my point in the order pass. The likely result is it goes down the order until Qwevvin's point in the initiative, where he'd likely have gutted you with all the lethality you brought to the table. So I took it upon myself to put the combat to an end, by stepping in & using the most expedient amount of force to do so. But if you remember, I chose to deal SUBDUAL damage to you, thus keeping you alive. I'm not proud of having to attack another player like you seem to be intoning, but the combat needed to stop there. I did what needed to be done to look after a party member first, & I would have gotten to you, in an unmanacled state I might add, but Tony went haring off into the woods, & someone needed to go after him. sadly, no one else decided it was worth the effort, so I had to go, & thus wasn't there to try & salvage the rest of the party. even tho I have two creatures on the board, I'm not two people, & I doubt the party would have taken it well if Diefenbacher started talking in your defense.
4) Power level
Ok, I know you're steamed in the extreme about this, but you can't expect that to fly. any two characters in this group can put down any one of the others. it's a fact. You can't seriously be expecting to be the untouchable one in a party, that would quickly get into the problems we had at the end of the first 3.5 game, where the level gap had opened up on the party & it was way too hard to challenge some people without nuking the rest.
I know it probably seems like I'm taking shots at you because of this, but I'm not trying to do that. I want to talk it out, & I fully expect to have a similar discussion with Tony on these points, addressing what he did wrong in the evening as well. Nobody had the right answers, & we all need to have a chat about it in order to fix things.
Moreover, I wish to apologize to Rob, our GM for this clusterfuck of an evening. I haven't had a chance to do so yet, & I want to make sure that we do appreciate his time & patience in all this as well.
Alrighty then...
Brian,
As a sign of respect, I'll bow out of this conversation at this point. From your last post, clearly this issue has more history to it then I am privy to and has come to its pinnicle in this past game.
I cannot defend Tony's actions and I am not aware of a pattern of this behavior, as such I cannot speak to that point. This baggage seems to be the root problem and you seem very much agrieved by it.
Therefore, I would encourge both parties to open a dialog and work out their differences on this matter.
If you guys cannot work it out, then I would encourage the DM/GMs of the group to reflect on any bylaws of the group or defer to the RPGA rules of conduct. I would start with the quoted section below.
"Unsporting conduct is unacceptable and is not tolerated at any time. GMs, players, attendees, and event officials must behave in a polite, respectable, and sporting manner. In addition, players who use profanity, argue, act belligerently toward event officials or one another, or harass attendees, GMs, officials, or other players are subject to the appropriate provisions of the RPGA Penalty Guidelines and may be subject to further RPGA review and possible penalties."
It is my most sincere wish that this be resolved amicably and as quickly as possible as I like my time at the table (virtual or other wise).
Mike
rook103
In omnia paratus
That Ain't The Half Of It
I think what we're really missing here is the fact that what should have been a simple intro was dragged out into a prolonged and painful inquisition which was about as much fun as dental surgery for absolutely no reason.
Was it because Loki was a Psion? No because Syed knew about Psions.
Was it because he was a Kalashtar? No because Duamathrax knew about the Kalashtar's and what they could do "Prophetic Dreams" etc...
Was it because he was egotistical and rude? No because other characters in the party, Kevin (can't remember real spelling) and Hurricane are quite rude, and/or egotistical among other things.
Was it because he was dishonest or less than forthcoming? No, he told the truth about everything, though was less than keen about answering questions about his racial origins, given the fact he was being threatened with death all night long. Where Kevin never answers any simple questions yes or no EVER!
Was it because he was hostile or showed such intent, or threatened anyone? No because he was never even remotely hostile towards anyone save for the Wizard Hurricane and then only after said wizard nearly bloodied him with his first attack.
Was it because he had no credentials as to who he really was? No, because none of the characters have this and Kevin, a recent addition to the group, was far more insulting to party members when he came into the group and had absolutely no credentials at all. All Kevin had was the name of an old party member which it seems was more than enough to draw suspicion to Loki.
I only get two sessions a month at best for any sort of relaxation and this weekend was a complete disaster! It not only wasted my time, but the time of everyone else who showed up with almost nothing to do while this little tiff played out. Short of becoming a prisoner, which would pretty much make my game play time NIL, I chose to say enough of this crap "I refuse". Then when my character defends himself from an overtly hostile act, he's attacked by others in the group and nearly killed, which pretty much destroyed any chances that I might continue to play this character in the future.
When I put this game group together my intention was to have a group of people get together to enjoy the game and have some fun. This is no longer fun for me at all and clearly I could tell that several others weren't having fun either.
So with that in mind, if every character you create is going to have some odd quirk that provides an excuse to go on a killing rampage within the party or cause undo strife (short of a story arc provided by the DM), then don't create any characters. If you're like me, I actually don't have fun with internal party strife because it distracts from game time and the actual story arc. This sort of thing is okay when you have hours each day to play whatever games you want, but there are those of us who have stressful jobs and lives making whatever game time we have precious to say the least.
In short, respect everyone's time and don't waste it!
Well, allow me to retort....
Considering the DECADES of roleplaying expirience with the key players involved...I am shocked at the escalation and outcome.
Not to turn this into a flame about the game, but to point out a few key things and make this a cathartic exercise, as everyone's time is precious and there is a premium I place on the time I can actually game. Please read to the end before stopping.
1. Loki's entrance, while theatrical and interesting, became not so much when Loki presummed leadership of the party (these are my perceptions). And then proceeded to say he was meant to be there. Okay, but from a character perspective: An armed and battle hardened company, just finished thawting a major military action is now walking back to a town and encounters a man speaking in riddles. Metagaming aside (your Vizzini impersonation is quite good) what would you expect from a group who just fought there way through a bunch of horrors and boiled the rest of them to think? "Ahh....looky a daft fellow. Let's adopt him as the group mascot!" Now in an attempt to mitigate some of the nonsense Loki was drawn away from camp, so that the group could encamp and plan with some security.
2. I know that you were given some plot devices to advance along, but (again IMHO) the "over the top Vizzini-ness" kind of ruined the message AND the DM's attempt to hook certain party members.
3. In character, (IMHO) Hurricane went insane! There was no cause or justification. His rational for attacking was paper thin and he failed win over the party to his way of thinking. Now the whole PARTY is at fault for not realizing that the "ritual time of 10 minutes" we should have been doing A LOT of talking and probably should have roleplayed that 10 minutes out to effect a different result.
4. The combat well... was a poor choice. I honestly thought we could roleplay it out, but it seems that Hurricane was not having it. I would actually like Tony to account for his reasons for this, but we can talk about that later.
5. So yes, Loki ended up in shackles (a very Priatey thing for Syed to do...). But I think Loki can turn the corner on this thing, if you Brian want to keep him in the game.
6. Tony...from you I would actually like to see the motives pretty clearly thought through for why Hurricane acted as he did. (IMHO) If Hurricane is a teen/tween then this can be roleplayed out with some breaking down and confession to Duamathrax or to the rest of the party. (again IMHO) I think we can mend some of these things pretty quickly so long and none of the players involved take it perosnally.
7. And then there's Todd..."can you throw us a freakin bone here?" with SAM. I realize you want to reintroduce her and you probably have screwed her up in some way that will be interesting to roleplay out and a nice puzzle for the rest of the party BUT come on... The best advice I ever got from an Improv class is to never ever say "NO" to someone, because it shuts down communications. So Latch Sam onto something...I don't care if it's the damn wolf, but give her something to bond to, else or I see Sam not making very far in the reintroduction process either.
8. Final VERDICT on each of the Characters:
Loki-Could be interesting to see a Psion played out in the Group. I like the impersonation and I think it will lead to a lot of funny moments, but we're not remaking a Cult classic....Syed is just to short.
Niles-I like Niles and would like to see him around more. I did the racialism that comes into play as he is a drow and I quite enjoy the effort you put into his Bardic songs.
Quvyn/Qevin/Quennyn/Kevin-I dig the mounted knight, but I think you've come to find that the mechanics of the build didn't work out, or so it seems. I like his style and think he could remain a key figure in the game. I think you may consider rebuilding him (with DM blessing) and keep him around.
Sam-As a player I dig having another Rogue around for backstabbing happiness...but in game all Syed can say is (cueing 70's porn music) "Let's get it on". So I'm happy to see Sam's return.
Hurricane-Well you just have to keep him around....especially if he has a breakdown of sorts. Rob love's working with key characters and their loved ones, undead and otherwise (Ask his cousin).
Thanks for your time!
rook103
rook103
In omnia paratus
UFB
You're missing the freaking point...!
To your 1st Point - This is a character I wanted to play for my entertainment, just like everyone else and their characters. The fact that it didn't score enough points with my choice of personality isn't materially important. So what if he was full of himself, that's the character. He could pronounce himself King, it doesn't make any difference and as it was meant to be funny and I would expect everyone is smart enough to figure that out.
To your 2nd Point - I spoke the items word for word as they were given to me by the DM to reveal from my dream. I was trying to portray this character in the method chosen, regardless of who did or didn't like it. THROW ME A FREAKING BONE HERE!!!! I don't critique anyone else's performance or choices so long as they don't lead to this sort of BS. Loki didn't go on a rampage, he defended himself against a DEADLY ENEMY and was put down for his trouble!!!
As to playing the character again, I would be hard pressed to play Loki as anything but an enemy to the group that threatened, all but killed him, and shackled him for no other reason then defending himself! Loki was nearly BLOODIED by the Wizard's first attack, which everyone saw first hand 17 points of INTENTIONAL DEADLY DAMAGE. After REPEATEDLY being told is that he was going to be KILLED if he didn't answer the questions being put to him, he didn't expect any quarter and got none. He answered all the questions, some multiple times and still took the worst of it. UFB! If this were a group of traditional Drow, I might accept the actions as they were portrayed for the purposes of game continuity, but we're not Chaotic Evil are we?
All I wanted to do was get passed the intro and move on to something interesting and see how the character worked. I didn't have a background so answering stuff about where I came from really wasn't prepped and ready. I don't have lots of time these days and I threw him together and it would seem that no matter how I answered you guys just kept pushing it. What the hell else was I supposed to do? You could have just let it pass... I've seen Evil NPCs treated better!